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People Are Not Born Gay!
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Tiger32
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 313
Do you believe this is genetics?

Do you actually believe this is a genetic issue?

Homosexuals today commonly claim that they cannot help being homosexual. Homosexuality, they argue, is innate, perhaps genetically determined. In any case it is so deeply ingrained that it is, for them, an inescapable condition. Therefore, they conclude, church and society should accept homosexuality as natural and, in that sense, normal. Surely, they insist, it is unfair to condemn people for what they cannot help doing.

Indeed, those homosexuals who want recognition as Christians interpret the “inescapability” of their condition theistically: “God made me this way.” How can Christians, then, condemn a condition that God himself created?

This question comes up in many areas of discussion other than homosexuality. The rapid progress of genetic science has led to lively discussions concerning whether some behavior patterns are innate. Some years ago, it was learned that an abnormally high proportion of boys with double “y” chromosomes engaged in anti?social or criminal behavior. Does this discovery imply that criminality is an innate and inescapable condition? What then? Should we abort children who have this genetic combination? Should we test children early for this condition and take special pains to steer xyy boys into constructive paths? Should we seek ways to change the genetic makeup of such children?

Later came the discovery that a certain gene is associated with a relatively high percentage of alcoholics. And still more recently, Simon LeVay, a gay activist and neuroscientist, published a paper in Science (253:1034?1037) arguing that there are some minute but statistically significant differences between heterosexual and homosexual men in the size of the “INAH?3” region of the anterior hypothalamus, part of the brain. Some have argued that this discovery tends to establish what gay activists have long been saying, namely that homosexuality is an innate condition rather than a “choice,” that it cannot be helped, and therefore that it should be accepted as normal.1

I am not competent to evaluate LeVay’s research. I do think that we are wise to suspend judgment until others who are more objective on the question corroborate LeVay’s work. However, we should note as others have that there is an unanswered “chicken and egg” problem here. How do we know that this condition (or perhaps the larger unexplored physical basis for it) is the cause and not the result of homosexual thought and behavior?

We must also remember that these discoveries were made through studies of the brains of people who were exclusively homosexual, compared with brains of people who were presumed to be exclusively heterosexual.2 But there is a wide spectrum between these two extremes. The exclusively homosexual population seems to be between 1% and 3% of the population (the widely used Kinsey figure of 10% is now discredited). But many more people have bisexual inclinations, and still others are largely heterosexual but willing to enter homosexual relationships under certain circumstances (experimentation, prison, etc.). Is there a genetic basis for these rather complicated patterns of behavior? Neither LeVay nor anyone else has offered data suggesting that.

But let’s assume that there is an innate physical basis for homosexuality, and for alcoholism, and indeed for general criminality. I suspect that as genetic science develops over the years there will be more and more correlations made between genetics and behavior, and that will be scientific progress. What ethical conclusions should we draw?

For one thing, we certainly should not draw the conclusion that many gay activists want to draw, namely that any “innate” condition must therefore be accepted as natural and normal. Innateness has nothing to do with normality. Many diseases, for example, are genetically determined. But we don’t consider Tay?Sachs or Sickle?Cell Anemia to be “normal” or desirable conditions, let alone to possess some ethical virtue. Nor do we consider alcoholism or “xyy” anti?social behavior to be normal and natural. Rather, we do all we can to fight them. Genetic discoveries, indeed, open up more possible weapons for this fight. Some have even suggested that the discovery of a “gay gene” would give us the opportunity, through abortion or genetic manipulation, to eliminate homosexuality (or at least one impulse toward homosexuality) from society altogether. That is precisely what gay activists don’t want to hear.

Further, we must keep these discoveries in perspective. Not everyone who has xyy chromosomes becomes a criminal, and not everyone with a genetic risk factor for alcoholism actually becomes an alcoholic. Similarly, it is quite unlikely that a “gay gene,” should it exist, would actually determine people to be homosexual. Although studies of twins do show a correlation between genetics and homosexuality, half of all twin brothers of homosexuals are heterosexual. So the data suggest something less than genetic determinism. Indeed, they suggest that it is possible for someone to resist patterns of behavior to which he is genetically predisposed. Genes do determine eye color, sex, blood type, and so on; but patterns of behavior, although influenced by genetic make?up, do not seem to be controlled by it. The typical behavioral differences between males and females, for example, have a genetic basis; but (as feminists are quick to point out) that genetic basis does not exhaustively determine how we will behave in every situation. Women sometimes behave in ways more typical of men, and vice versa. Genes may impel, but they don’t compel.

Indeed, other sorts of influences are often more compelling than genetic inheritance. An unsigned editorial in National Review (Aug. 9, 1993, p. 17) points out that “the effects of childhood brutalization can restrict one’s freedom far more than does a physiological preference for sweets; and many purely biological impulses pale in strength before the smoker’s need of a cigarette.” So, if we excuse homosexuality on the basis of genetic predisposition, we should equally excuse all acts resulting from environmental influence and from bad choices in the past. Whether a compulsion has a genetic basis is ethically irrelevant.

Nor do we in other cases excuse acts committed on the basis of genetic predispositions. One who has a genetic propensity to alcoholism cannot excuse his alcoholism on that basis; nor can an xyy man excuse his criminality. These conditions do not force people to do anything contrary to their desires. In that sense, they do not compromise moral freedom. They do create moral challenges, venues for moral temptation. But that too should be seen in perspective — all of us have moral “weak spots,” areas where we are especially vulnerable to the Devil’s enticements. These areas of temptation have many sources, heredity being one of them. Others may be environment, experiences, and our own past decisions. Thus, some people have a particular problem with the temptation to abuse alcohol; others, because of their early training, personal taste, or social attachments, are not often tempted to commit that particular sin. But these will certainly have other areas of temptation. This is true even for those who are most mature in the Christian faith: such maturity opens one to the temptation of spiritual pride. Thus, the person whose special moral challenges have a genetic component is not in a totally unique situation. We all face such challenges; they are never entirely under our control. For all of us, this world is a spiritually dangerous place. Truly, “your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour” (1 Pet. 5:8). But thanks to God’s grace, we may “resist him, standing firm in the faith, because [we] know that [our] brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings” (1 Pet. 5:9).

Would a genetic basis for homosexuality eliminate the element of “choice?” Certainly not. A person with a genetic propensity for alcoholism still makes a choice when he decides to take a drink, and then another, and then another. The same is true for an xyy male who decides to punch somebody in the nose. If we assume the existence of a genetic propensity for homosexuality, it is true that those with that makeup face greater temptation in this area than others. But those who succumb to the temptation do choose to do so, as do all of us when we succumb to our own besetting temptations. Homosexuals certainly choose not to remain celibate, and they choose to have sexual relations. They are not forced to do this by their genes or by anything contrary to their own desires.

Is it possible for a homosexual to repent of his sin and, by God’s grace, to become heterosexual? Christian ministries to homosexuals claim that this is possible and that it has happened, though they admit that this is a particularly difficult sin to handle. Sexual orientation is something that goes very deeply into human personality, and we have an instinct to keep it relatively private. That instinct is a good one, but it does make counseling in this area especially difficult. Gay activists instead claim that change is impossible, disputing alleged “ex?gay” testimonies. Indeed, some people who have professed deliverance from homosexuality have later returned to homosexual relationships. And many “ex?gays” have candidly admitted that they continue to experience homosexual attraction, attraction that they now perceive as a moral and spiritual challenge. Pro?gay advocates argue that this lingering homosexual temptation proves that homosexuality is ineradicable.

I believe on faith that God can deliver homosexuals, because Scripture teaches that His grace can deliver his people from all sin (see especially 1 Cor. 6:9-11). I haven’t done first?hand research on the results of various ministries to homosexuals. It would certainly not surprise me to learn that many people who struggle by God’s grace to overcome their homosexuality still experience homosexual temptations. People who have been addicted to alcohol often face continuing temptations in this area long after they have stopped drinking to excess. Similarly, those who have overcome the impulses of hot tempers, drugs, or heterosexual promiscuity may continue to experience temptation in these areas. If it were true that repentant homosexuals continued to experience homosexual temptation, it would not cast the slightest doubt on the power of God’s grace to heal such people. Recurrent temptation is a problem for all of us, and will be until glory. One may not judge the fruits of Christian ministries on a perfectionist criterion, namely the assumption that deliverance from sin must remove all temptation toward that sin in this life.

The bottom line is that the genetic element in sin does not excuse it. To see that, it is important to put the issue into an even wider perspective. Christianity forces us again and again to widen our angle of vision, for it calls us to see everything from the perspective of a transcendent God and from the standpoint of eternity. Such a perspective helps us to see our trials as “light and momentary” (2 Cor. 4:17), and our sins as greater than we normally admit. From a biblical perspective, the difficult fact is that in one sense all sin is inherited. From Adam comes both our sin and our misery. We are guilty of Adam’s transgression, and through Adam we ourselves inherit sinful natures. If a genetic predisposition excuses sodomy, then our inheritance from Adam excuses all sin! But that is clearly not the case. Of course, Reformed theology construes our relationship to Adam as representative, rather than merely genetic, and that is important. But Adam represents all who are descended from him “by natural generation;” so there is also an inevitable genetic element in human sin.

Is that fair? Consider that Adam contained all the (genetic!) potentialities of all of us, and lived in a perfect environment save one source of temptation. None of us could or would have done any better. And, American individualism to the contrary notwithstanding, the human race is one in important senses, and God is right to judge it as a single entity. The bottom line, of course, is that we are his creations. He defines what is “fair,” and he has the right to do as he pleases with the work of his hands.

In this broad context, however, the argument that one sin should be declared normal on the basis of its genetic component or because of some other kind of “inevitability” is entirely self?serving. As Paul said, “It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him” (1 Thes. 4:3-6).

19th June 2002 05:02
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Jaybang
Senior Member

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 129
If your son or daughter were gay would you dis-own them?

Tiger 32...

"The bottom line is that the genetic element in sin does not excuse it." (Tiger-32)

Is it a sin to masturbate?

Most humans, start playing with themselves when they start coming into puberty, or before. They don't realise what they are doing, it just happens naturally. For them it only becomes wrong to do that when they are told by there parents that it is bad , wrong or in your case a sin.

Do you consider people/ kids going through puberty who masturbate as having a genetic disorder or are they just doing what comes naturauly ?

Answer A:
Yes i consider them to have a genetic disorder.
(need i say what i think if you choose this?)

Answer B:
No they are just doing what comes natrauly.
(If they are just doing what come natrauly, then how can it be a sin?)

"Christianity forces us again and again to widen our angle of vision" (Tiger-32)... you have to be kidding?

19th June 2002 08:59
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Lio
Junior Member

Registered: Mar 2001
Posts: 9

Jaybang...fully agree with you, I wonder where such opinions as Tiger´s comes from ... mhm...arguing whether homosexuality is inborn or not is not the topic to discuss, anyway. You will always come across to science, religion and morals.
Lio

19th June 2002 09:23
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Tiger32
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 313

Well Lio, homosexuals have many people convinced that they were born that way, even though it has not been proven scientificly.

Some Scientists who are gay, say that they have inherited a defective gene, while other Scientists say that there is no gene which determines whether a person will or will not be gay. Just like there is gene to predict whether a person will or will not be a Murderer.

A person is left with choices in life, to blame it on a defective gene, is simply escaping responsiblity for one's actions.

19th June 2002 20:17
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Jaybang
Senior Member

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 129

Well Tiger, religious people have many other people convinced that God exists, even though it has not been proven scientifically.

"A person is left with choices in life" (Tiger-32)

Isnt that the point, to be able to make your own choices with out being persecuted for it?

Your just pissed, because other peoples choices dont conform to yours.

20th June 2002 04:55
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Tiger32
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 313

quote:
Originally posted by Jaybang
Your just pissed, because other peoples choices dont conform to yours.



Not at all, If you want to continue your Gay lifestyle, then do so at your own risk. But of course, there is a price to pay for that lifestyle..........And that is something that you obviously cannot handle.

17th July 2002 02:53
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Fufuball
Member

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 30
To be Gay or not to be Gay that is the question?

What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom has nothing to do with me whatsover....therefore since it is not my business I don't ask....I disapprove of sexual promiscuity in heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.

When people make judgement calls on something as deeply ingrained in the hormones and minds of people and label one as ok and the other as worthy of hell....I question just how Christian they truly are.

I am a straight and happily married female who married her husband and never had sex with no one else ever. Does that make me superior to my friend Laura who due to many psychological and family issues went through many one-night stands and bad relationships....it would if I judged her like Tiger here likes to....instead I understand her problems, and I listen and do not judge her or dictate....instead I see a woman who rose out of poverty and difficulty and put herself through college and started her own business and never asked for anything she did not earn and think she is a good friend....and her bedroom life is none of my business. She finally found someone worth a permanent relationship with and will be marrying soon. Will I stand around and play God on his mighty throne when she walks down the aisle in a white dress that symbolizes virginity and purity and think she has no right to wear it? NOOOOOO!! She is beautiful and smart and great....cuz she is not about sexual acts or bisexuality or homosexuality she is about being a decent human being and loving others. THE END.

17th July 2002 04:11
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Tiger32
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 313
Re: To be Gay or not to be Gay that is the question?

quote:
Originally posted by Fufuball
What two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom has nothing to do with me whatsover....therefore since it is not my business I don't ask....I disapprove of sexual promiscuity in heterosexuals as well as homosexuals.
[/QUOTE

We are not just talking about an individual's behavior, I wish it were that simple, but the problem is much bigger than that, instead we are talking about a sin that God has characterize as an abomination, and this sin is not only practiced by one or two, but instead it is practiced by millions.... And it is actually celebrated to the point that it is regarded as normal behavior by some....My only problem here is that people are afraid to call it what it is.....Because they are afraid of offending people who practice this disgusting behavior. I am not afraid of calling it what it is, because God has judged this behavior and determined it not only to be a sin, but an abomination.....If you have problem with that, than that is on you, not me.....As for your questioning whether or not I am a Christian, I am, so deal with that....But anyone who would defend the sin of homosexuality, is either ignorant, or a non Christian......So which are you?

[Edited by Tiger32 on 17th July 2002 at 22:42]

17th July 2002 04:44
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Fufuball
Member

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 30

I am not God therefore I do not judge...there are other much bigger sins with greater consequences than being gay I think.

One I can think of is people who love offending others and playing God on his mighty throne when they should be doing Christian works and helping people in real need instead. Change yourself Tiger (that is the only person who you can control anyway) the rest belong to God and Jesus if they want him....and have their own destinies to fulfill. See good in all and try to live your life (if you are Christian) as Jesus lived his....not putting alot of energy behind judging others but forgiving them and sacrificing for them...and through his Love opening their hearts. Jesus was about loving actions and loving example not judgement. The only time he was truly angry was when he saw the Temple to worship God being used to trade and make profits....to me that means what got Jesus angry was not what Gay people were doing in their bedrooms....it was what supposedly devout Jews were not doing....being humble and not profitting off the image of God. I say if you want to win over gays Tiger the first thing is to care about them and love them regardless of how much you disapprove of their lifestyle and change the bad habits and bad thoughts about others and just concentrate on doing things that are Godly. Period.

17th July 2002 05:40
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Jaybang
Senior Member

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 129
Tiger or God, as you like to see your self...

I just want to point something out to you, you ignorant, bible bashing , homophobic *******.

I am not gay, I never said I was. I just dont agree with your CHRISTIAN View points on running down every human that doesnt follow the same beliefs that you do.

You are becomming one sad individual, and I cant believe that people can be so blinded by faith that they look upon the world with such judgement and negativity.
You are truly a first grade ******* and you are making me sick with your continual homophobic remarks.

The more i hear comments like yours, backed by your BLIND FIATH and IGNORANT VIEWPOINTS, the faster I will run from any person carrying a bible, and its people like YOU who are responible for this happening... because you have no logic.... no heart and no soul.. you almost seem like programmed being.

My best friend is very very relgious, and i respect his beliefs, and he mine, and weve never had a problem ever. We discuss our viewpoints with utmost respect, and allways with our higher truth. But you Tiger scare the living hell out of me, as you seem to be the most evilest christian i have met. Im sorry if this offends, but you suck

I try and keep the thought in my mind, that you dont represent the true Christian, but merley a pathetic individual who has nothing else in life to hold onto, and so you cling to the bible for all your worth, twisting and perverting the word of YOUR God, and I say "YOUR" God, because there is no way , I ever want to be like you, or believe what you beleive.

And just a note to any other christian people, who think im being unjust. I embrace peoples religion as I think they all have the same focal point, the same spiritual goal, in that they all beleive in a higher entity, and push forward the message of LOVE. Its just sometimes people come across representing there religion, but instead of showing the BEST of there religion, they show the WORST, and so much so, that it seems like they have lost focus on the bigger picture, and instead of living out of LOVE, they live out of FEAR.

Im sorry to have gone off the topic here, but this had to be said.

17th July 2002 06:23
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Jaybang
Senior Member

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 129
*******

Incase you were wandering what I was calling you Tiger...

the ******* represents A S S H O L E, and thats what you are.... one big A S S H O L E

17th July 2002 06:26
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Tiger32
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 313

quote:
Originally posted by Fufuball
I am not God therefore I do not judge...there are other much bigger sins with greater consequences than being gay I think.

One I can think of is people who love offending others and playing God on his mighty throne when they should be doing Christian works and helping people in real need instead.


I totally disagree with you....I did not write the bible, and I would do more harm than good by telling people that homosexuality is alright, when it obviously is not. No I think the person who says that it is not a sin, is the one who is playing God, by trying to overrule God's judgement.

Yeshua (a.k.a. Jesus the Christ) is the word of God manifested in the flesh. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
Now, listen to what the Word of God has to say concerning homosexuality:

The Bible clearly tells us that homosexuality is an abomination to God. In Leviticus 18:22, God clearly commands, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; because it is detestable."

God's Judgement:
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.--1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.--Romans 1:26-27

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.--Jude 1:7

I am not the one who is making this up, this is well documented in the Bible, so Jesus opinion was clear on the subject.

17th July 2002 06:33
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Tiger32
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 313
Re: *******

quote:
Originally posted by Jaybang
Incase you were wandering what I was calling you Tiger...

the ******* represents A S S H O L E, and thats what you are.... one big A S S H O L E


I was not wandering, but I will excuse your vulgarity, because I understand that you are very disturbed. But don't worry, I will still pray for you.

17th July 2002 06:40
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Jaybang
Senior Member

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 129
HOW DOES IT FEEL ??

Tiger -

Every time you open yourt mouth, you push people further away from being religious..... how does that feel.... and yet you will continue to push people away from god, when you think you are bringing them closer...

Cant you see that the only people who beleive and support your ideas, are the ones who already believe as you do, and as such all you do is fluff each others pillows.

You are not winning anybody else over, because your approach is all wrong.

Open up your heart... Wise up..., or move on.

17th July 2002 09:19
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Tiger32
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2001
Posts: 313
Re: HOW DOES IT FEEL ??

quote:
Originally posted by Jaybang
Tiger -

Every time you open yourt mouth, you push people further away from being religious..... how does that feel.... and yet you will continue to push people away from god, when you think you are bringing them closer...



Those who shy away from religion, do not do so on my account. However, those who choose to justify the practice of homosexuality, such as yourself may find themselves pushed away, but once again it is not on my account, instead it is as a result of your own failure to repent of this behavior.

I do provide a commentary which is not favorable to the sin of homosexuality...But I use the bible as the basis for this commentary....If you cannot handle the truth, that is your problem not mine....I guess you expect God to make a special exception in your case, so that you can still practice homosexuality....But since you cannot find a loophole in God's law, than you must attack it, or attack the messenger who brings attention to it. These are not new tactics, this is what Gays have been doing for decades. But as you can clearly see, these tactics will not work on me.

17th July 2002 21:30
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