well i stopped believing in a god at a very early age. i was 5 when my father was taken from me in a terrible road accident in south africa, my whole life changed. both my father and my uncle died, me and my brother were left without a father and my mother without her husband, bestfriend and lover.
What type of a god would take a 5yr old daughter's father away from her when she needed him the most, i ask myself this question nearly everyday and since then i have vowed that i do not believe in god!
i dont believe there is a god not only because of this reason, but i just think that if there was a god why is there suffering in the world, why are people alone and in pain everywhere? why is the mass killings? why is there wars? All these questions are normal from a none believer i hear you cry! but surely if there was a god then he would help us as we are all supposed to be HIS children!
I just believe that God is a figure that humans dreamt up along time ago to give people of the earth hope. i say if we need this figure of hope to live our lives then i say we are a very fickle species.

Psalms 53

53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, [A Psalm] of David. The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity: [there is] none that doeth good.
53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were [any] that did understand, that did seek God.
53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; [there is] none that doeth good, no, not one.
53:4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people [as] they eat bread! they have not called upon God.
53:5 There they were in great fear, [where] no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth [against] thee: thou hast put [them] to shame, because God hath despised them.
53:6 O that the salvation of Israel [were come] out of Zion!
when God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, [and] Israel shall be glad.

sorry but i do not see what these quotes have to do with arguing the point of whether there is a god or not. if you are going to use quotes then please back them up with some evidence!

Oh dear.
Is there anyone here who can support the idea of a God with more than blind faith and unsupported quotations?
What is the historical strength of the Bible? Having read up on various trusted and reliable ancient historians I am coming to question the very existance of Jesus as a historical figure, let alone a messiah.
Why is there no mention of Jesus in the works of Josephus Flavius or of Philo, and the reference to 'Christus' in Tacitus' Chapter 44 of the 15th book of 'Annals'(117AD) is widely regarded as a forgery. The passage deals with Nero's burning down of Rome.

'Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated by the people for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race.'

1. There is no other evidence supporting the claim Nero himself burnt Rome, so he needed no scapegoat.
2. Tacitus never uses the name Jesus and assumes the reader would know Pontius Pilate which show that Tacitus was not working from official records or writing for non-Christian audiences.
3. There is no other historical proof for Nero persecuting the Christians, and there was certainly no great numbers of christians in Rome, indeed the term 'Christian' was not in common use in the first century (when Tacitus was writing).

and most crucially of all the passage is present almost word for word in the Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus (who died in the fifth century AD) mixed with clearly fake tales. None of Sulcipus' contemporaries mention this passage from Tacitus meaning it was probably not in Tacitus' manuscript at the time. Much more likely is that copyists in the dark ages, copied Sulcipus' passage into their copies of Tacitus' manuscript.

I would be very interested in any arguments against this view, though please try and support and explain any views.
Thanks again

Hi,
reading through your lines forces me to put a couple of lines too. Secundus, your reply to above mentioned is the very same attitude to discussed subject as Rosie´s and others.
Now I wonder why you all argue about God´s existence, while it is the most intimate issue of everyone. One considers God´s Bible says, another may imagine it as a bowl of energy twisting in the universe, and others just do not think about it but live life.
Hardly can be decided what is best way, we all do it by our own, due to eductaion, nationalities, ethnic, cultural and environmental impacts, society etc...

The one thing I must tell you though: I really enjoyed reading your replies, since it has been so long time I was there to visit.
I wish all of you very nice day and smile that we all need so much :-)))

Lio

Hey Lio, glad you said you enjoyed reading these posts.

I do 'live life', but occassionally you must have considered issues greater than yourself. Otherwise you wouldn't read these posts!

I also explain my reason for arguing on the issue in my previous post, I feel religion generally has a negative effect: an excuse for war and persecution, a limit on scientific exploration, a limit on freedom of expression.

Also, my view is pretty much directly opposite to Rosie's isn't it?

i have never come across people like you lot. Here we are debating the fact on whether there is a god, not on the fact that people sometimes think of higher things other than ourselves.
Yes i have already stated that the human race is a fickle species, but this just proves the point more. As a species we need a higher being to act like a GOD so that we have hope in the world. However i dont think that this is doin any of us any good. Lets face it many of todays wars are started by the conflict of religions If there was a god did he/she mean for us to be fighting over he/she like this?

Sam

Surely debating the existance of God is considering something greater than yourself? But anyway.

I don't think we NEED a 'higher being' at all. When people consider the universe and life and such things they come across a lot of difficult questions, and the idea of a God is an argument that answers them all, is easily understood and comforting.

Religious wars rarely occur because the leaders have differing views on religion and believe God WANTS them to fight, rather religion is used to whip up hostility against an enemy or bind a nation more closely. If you convince people they are fighting for God, you have a very powerful control over them because of the unquestioning faith you can control.

Do you disagree, or was that not your point?
Secundus

Well secundus, i agree with your argument but it wasnt the point i was trying to make. Yes if you do convince people that they are fighting for what they believe in, that is a powerful hold that you have over them.
But still this again is wrong, we use theese arguments to pull people to fight in wars which may lead to their own death. is that right?
Ofcourse we need a "higher being" because without this higher being then there would be no hope in the world. People need hope to survive. If we didnt have hope then what would have happened when the twin towers of the world trade centre collapsed. Hope brought people together to pull the remaining survivers from the rubble. Hope has started the clear up operation and the rebuiling of one of the great symbols of hope.
If we didnt have hope what are the millions of refugees doing in the united kingdom, they are HOPING to seek safety from war torn countries. so YES we do need some hope in the world and thats why we have cunjured up this idea of a god, to help us through our painful lives.

Sam

hi Rosie
Sure God is real. Just the fact that you are wondering, makes me think that you do actualy believe that He is alive/real. Unseen but here with us. The fact that He send His only Son to die for us is real I am living proof. My previous life could only be changed by Jesus Christ being alive in my life. The whole earth is proof God made it beautiful. He Loves me He loves you He loves everyone on this earth not their sins! you are welcome to write me to my e.mail maybe we can chat on the net?

There are plenty of extra-biblical records supporting Jesus' life during that era.

Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, chief secretary of Emperor Hadrian (117-138 AD):

Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian

Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor around 112 AD

Emperor Trajan, in reply to Pliny

Emporer Hadrian (117-138 AD), in a letter to Minucius Fundanus, the Asian proconsul

The Jewish Talmud, compiled between 70 and 200 AD:

Lucian, a second century Greek satirist:

Mara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, writing between 70 and 200 AD from prison to motivate his son to emulate wise teachers of the past:

...and there is more.


Either God is real or this is some kind of sick twisted joke right? I here of those that say "pursue happiness!" how selfish can one be? It's all about me! I don't think so, every time someone in the world laughs at a joke a child dies of starvation, molestation or cancer somewhere else. How long can you laugh before you start to mourn? You want to gather all the intellectual fragments to form a decision that God does not exist but without Christ your decaying and mortal mind is nothing more than dust and to dust it shall return. Yes this issue is larger than ourselves but your journey is vain and the path you walk is only created by your own laying of the man's logical bricks. And in the end when your road is finished you will come to Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. which was already depicted before you started your search. Do you honestly believe you come to know God on your terms...the God of all creation? Don't you think it would be wiser to learn his terms? He has already reached His hand out to the extent but you are too busy reading a book on the absence of Jesus in the historical records. Are you trying to find the answers of God's existence threw your own understanding? If so, then understand this much, it is by belief through faith in Christ that one can know God. It is that simple. Make sure your journey is honest. Rosie is being honest in that she questions here and there, but she must never look around her to determine her relationship with God. The israelites were given miracles one after another but they kept looking to their circumstances around them and started disbelieving again and again till they angered God. Today we have grace to cover us from God's wrath but never lose mind this mess we are in is due to mankind's wicked and sinful heart. Surely you must know that there is more than meets the eye? Man's mind eye. Atheism loses on it's own terms because it has the same burden of proof..i.e. The outspoken atheist Kai Nielsen recognizes this: "To show that an argument is invalid or unsound is not to show that the conclusion of the argument is false....All the proofs of God’s existence may fail, but it still may be the case that God exists."4
So that means you actual turn out to be presumptous in your debate.
The atheist assumes that if one has no evidence for God’s existence, then one is obligated to believe that God does not exist — whether or not one has evidence against God’s existence. What the atheist fails to see is that atheism is just as much a claim to know something ("God does not exist") as theism ("God exists"). Therefore, the atheist’s denial of God’s existence needs just as much substantiation as does the theist’s claim; the atheist must give plausible reasons for rejecting God’s existence. for more .... http://www.equip.org/free/DA252.htm
so please, if your going to be honest be sure to come full circle in your logic in that you should prove he doesn't exist so that you don't contradict your own logic.

The existence of objective morality provides further evidence for belief in God. If widow-burning or genocide is really wrong and not just cultural, then it is difficult to account for this universally binding morality, with its sense of "oughtness," on strictly naturalistic terms. (Most people can be convinced that the difference between Adolf Hitler and Mother Teresa is not simply cultural.) These and other reasons demonstrate that the believer is being quite rational — not presumptuous — in embracing belief in God.

If you were placed on this palnet, on your own, with no other soul around, just you and the earth, if your memory was wiped clean or religion and faiths and you had to start over... how much chance do you think there is that you would believe in God? not in a higher being, but actualy in your God?

Do you think God would suddenly appear and say,

"Hi, I am God, I have made all that you see, I have made you, and for this, you must show appreciation and respect.Here , this is a book, written from before your time, it has my commandments in. Follow them,and you will one day be at my side in a place called heaven, alternatively if you choose not to you will burn in hell for eternity"

I dont think so... whats more likely to happen is, you would see the sun rise in the morning, and you would THINK, "What is this that brings light and warmth,on seeing a bird you would THINK, hmm what is this little creature that floats in the air and sings, what is this ..... and what is that.... bla bla bla..."

Okay so im talking s.h.i.t here, but the point of the matter is, you would THINK for yourself!!! You would make your own opinions about everything around you.

Whats different from this scenareo then the life we live to day... the difference is, no one thinks for themselves, they are spoon fed, beliefs and history, theories and stories etc etc etc....

And then they debate over what is fact and what is fiction, like they know it from first hand experiance. Well, the truth is, what you know, is what you have been spoon fed. Unless of course your one of those people, who has the strength to brake away from the pack, and figure things out for yourselves.

You can do one of two things, let "God" be your shepard, and allow yourself to be led by his supposed word, from a book. You can have your lifes guidlines laid out for you, so that it will be easier for you to not have to THINK, or you can take time out from your everyday humdrum life, set aside some time to be on your own, and THINK for yourself, THINK what would i do,and what would i beleive, if i had never been told about any religion. THINK, about how you would create you own guidlines, that would suit you, that wouldnt hurt anyone else... Do you really need to be told how to live? Can you really not THINK for yourself ?

Well I guess not.. thats to hard... its easier to be led. Well dont worry, I understand... what ever you do, is right for you.

Thats just the way it is.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jaybang
If you were placed on this palnet, on your own, with no other soul around, just you and the earth, if your memory was wiped clean or religion and faiths and you had to start over... how much chance do you think there is that you would believe in God? not in a higher being, but actualy in your God?

---

I have already been there on the hill top reasoning away at the grand scheme of things. I watched the little bird fly in all it's beauty. I saw the raccoon in search of something to nibble on. I did THINK for myself...but I started to think outside of the box. I thought to myself that this is not by chance, these are beautiful designs that point to a designer. You see, I watched that bird flying about and there was a sense of peace about me, but as the bird flew around the corner a mountain lion from behind the boulder leaped into the air and swatted the bird into it's mouth. The heart that beats in the birds chest did not beat no more and the end came to it. I learned that there is an end to life which again lead to more questions. If there is a designer then perhaps He holds life and death in His hands also. If there is a beginning and an end, what is in between? If the beginning is birth and the end is death then what could compare with such great things? What should be in between and is there a way to contact this designer to get some answers?

The birds in the air are like the grass in the field, here today and gone tomorrow...am I too like the grass in the field? Sure I have thought, I have emotions, I can sing and shout and carry on, I can think and the grass cannot. But in the end, I wither just as the grass does. The designer has applied the same rule to me. I must end someday. This leads me to be a little more serious about my search for answers. Everything about me is just passing threw, my emotions, my thoughts, my imagination...something has to be constant, something has to last longer. The designer is constant the rules of death are not applied to Him. What does He want me to do for Him? Even without the Bible I can speak to Him and He can speak to me...it's called prayer.
Jaybang, your assuming that people believe because it was jammed in their heads early in life but that isn't true. You also see God as this commander who is sitting there waiting to penalize the evil doers that disobey him. What your missing is the free gift from Him to you. You can't earn it and you receive it as you are...you don't prep yourself to receive it...you just receive it if you believe. True Christians don't just go around faking a belief and pretending to know something that others don't and dismissing all logic as atheist would have you believe. How great is man's logic compared to God's logic? We aren't afraid of death and use it as a crutch..good grief..do you know how may martyrs there are? We have been touched in our spirits by the Hand of God when we have believed.

Believe in yourself? What powers do you have? Can you create a flower? Can you rescue a child from cancer? Perhaps you can rescue yourself from death? You can't make a single hair on your head grow. Find your inner happiness that is the answer? This will answer all questions and is the goal of life? Then how come this is not available to all? Do you really believe that everyone has the chance to find happiness for themselves from within? Again I say, how long can you be happy before you are sad? It appears you believe in the power of dust because dust is what we are.